Roller Derby’s Lady Trample shares her recent successes and Former Gymnast turned Weightlifter Alethea Boon talks about preparing for her third Commonwealth Games
Fair Play, presented by Zoe George in Wellington, is a co production of WiSP Sports & Radio New Zealand
Podcast length 30′
Samara Pepperell aka Lady Trample has been in the U.S. competing in the Roller Derby World Champs where she was named MVP. Zoe George and her guest co-host para climber Rachael Carter talk about encouraging other women to lace up their skates. Then we pump some iron with Alethea Boon, who will be representing NZ at the Commonwealth Games next year for the third time, but the first time in weight lifting.
Para climber Rachel Carter’s story is an inspirational one. When she was a teenager an awkward fall changed the course of her life. She broke one ankle and shattered the other. She was wheelchair bound and hand to learn to walk again. It has been a difficult road for Rachel. She’s faced so many challenges, medically, physically, psychologically. Her left leg is permanently damaged and she requires a crutch to walk. She was told that she was “a cripple”… and she started to believe it. But things started to change three years ago, and now she’s scaling walls all around the country.
Zoe on Twitter @producer_zoe
Roller derby info: https://wftda.org/history
Roller derby rules summary: https://rules.wftda.com/summary.html
Samira’s Team info:
Name: Samara Pepperell
Skater name: Lady Trample
Started playing roller derby in 2012 in Auckland, New Zealand with Pirate City Rollers (PCR), played on the A level travel team 2012-2015.
Currently playing on the A level travel team for Victorian Roller Derby League (Victoria / VRDL). Joined in 2016. We came 3rd at last years Champs only loosing one game all season. This season we were undefeated and won the Hydra trophy at the WFTDA Championship (Womens flat track roller derby). I also took out MVP for this tournament which is a huge honour.
In 2014 I played at the Roller Derby World Cup for Team New Zealand (now Team Aotearoa). I am currently on the team for the 2018 Roller Derby World Cup which is held in Manchester this coming Feb.
Grew up playing mostly netball but like most kiwi’s I dabbled in a variety of other sports including rugby, hockey and kickboxing. Other than a short stint on blades in the 90’s I had no previous experience roller skating.
I also run a skate company called Chicks in Bowls which promotes the sport of quad skating in skateparks (like rollerblading or skateboarding). We have over 250 associated skate crews around the globe and we’ve designed a line of products.
[00:00:00] Kia Ora I’m Zoe George. And welcome to fair play a podcast covering women in sport from athletes and results to current affairs and issues. This is the third episode of Fair Play and you can find all the shows on RNZ.co.nz and wispsports.com. There you can also find a range of other fantastic shows from around the world and various sports bringing you the latest news from women’s sport. You can also follow us on social media @WiSPsports and @producer_zoe. This month we celebrate success with three incredible women. Shortly we’ll hear from Samara Papparell aka Lady Trample who has been in the states competing in the roller derby world champs where she was named MVP. We talk about encouraging other women to lace up these skates. Then we pump some iron with Alethea Boon who’ll be representing New Zealand at the Commonwealth Games next year for the third time. It’s the first time in weightlifting but meet our first guest and today’s co host Para climber Rachael Carter whose story is an inspirational one. When she was a teenager an awkward fall changed the course of her life. She broke one ankle and shattered the other. She was wheeled she bound and had to learn how to walk again. It’s been a difficult road for Rachel. She’s faced so many challenges medically physically psychologically her left leg is permanently damaged and she requires a crutch to walk she she was told that she was a cripple and she started to believe it. But things started to change. Three years ago and now she’s scaling walls all around the country.
[00:01:34] Kia Ora Rachael, Hi Zoe…you were in sixth form weren’t you when you when you had this fall…yeah I was 16… and what happened?
[00:01:43] So I was competing for my high school. An Invercargill school and we rocked up to Christchurch secondary school champs, had a great score going into the finals the next day. Everybody was very amped, very excited but I blew an ankle out and broke the other in a training run the evening before so I took a controlled fall. I did everything right but landed very awkwardly on a small little patch where the landing surface had been rapids and that was enough to cause some pretty significant damage. So what damage was done to your ankles. So one was a fairly minor break but made a plaster because obviously it would be supporting all my weight whilst the other recovers the lift ankle. Unfortunately suffered shearing off of the college. Some of the barn just disintegrated and had to be replaced by little pace at my hip and in multiple bolts and screws and bits and pieces to put it back together again in a very long long race have to learn how to walk all over. So Rachael tell me about your experience in high school following your injury I guess as many people experience you can find yourself being given labels that you didn’t choose for yourself or for me that started in high school and it continued as an adult. And that was you know harmless comments like cripple or invalid, things like that.
[00:03:03] But I picked that up and wore that subconsciously sort of as my favorite outfit for many many years and they became a defining point where I had to decide that’s not going to be my favorite outfit anymore. I get to chose the life that I have and the attitude I have to it. A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if no one believes that. So I had to decide what I believed about myself and what the truth really was select and my climbing has really helps with it. Yeah it’s incredible watching you climb. You think it’s amazing. It’s incredible doing. It feels amazing and it’s nice to celebrate that you went through numerous surgeries didn’t you. Yes. And you were saying you had a page taken from your face taken out of my hip and instantly you wouldn’t think that your head with needed to sneeze. But I’ll tell you sneezing after surgery that hurt more than the major reconstruction of the ankle itself. Yeah was bit messed up and then I went on to have multiple debridement ops ops over the next few years so that involves just a quick walk on the joint taking out scrape at the college that have fallen off taking out little bits of barn that are growing in the wrong place and trying to alleviate the pain that way and the Houde me for some time. And then eventually that wasn’t enough either. I was in a spot of trouble. What happened then. I was offered an experimental op which is gaining some traction and at the countries but New Zealand’s I believe I was number five to have the surgery. Wow.
[00:04:35] Might have been the second person second patient from my particular surgeon and he didn’t have great success with the patient before me so I knew going into the surgery it might not be successful but it was a chance that I wanted to take. And so that involved having a traction frame attached through and and out of your leg and it sort of hung externally off my foot for four months and I was required to tinker away with that and slowly stretch my ankle apart well and and has it worked. Yeah I’ve I’ve grown some cartilage out of a joint that had nothing left to us. And I have some joint space where previously there was none. So it has been successful to the point that I can walk with one crutch. And to me that’s a win because I did nearly two years on two crutches and that was a bit challenging. It had its humorous moments I had four year olds who would say this crazy frame on my leg and you’d say their eyes just following you at the football field and they’d be tugging on mummy saying mommy look that mommy’s a transformer. Like. Yes. I am. We celebrated the funny side of it is that definitely had its challenges and its moments.
[00:05:50] I can only imagine. We’re talking to para climber and today’s cohost Rachel Carter. When did you get back into climbing and did you struggle to get back proverbially on the horse?
[00:06:00] I took up climbing really only this year again and not regularly until probably June. I was aware there were some national competitions coming up and that New Zealand would be offering for the first time a Para Climbing category and I think that just motivated me a little bit to go. I’m going to compete in that category. I’d had probably a 16 year break from climbing and I didn’t have a good mentality about what I was capable of and what I could do. So climbing for me became quite therapeutic and it was a way to acknowledge Yep things are different now I’m going to have to re-learn to do this completely differently.
[00:06:39] It’s not the same but I can do it because before the accident you used both legs. Yes. Yeah. Now you still have both of your legs but you only have movement and one of your legs I can move the legs and I can counterbalance with it.
[00:06:56] So I could position it out from the wall just to give a better balance but there’s no strength in their and pain wise I cannot weight-bear on that foot on the wall. So I will use my knee a little but largely I’m two arms one leg.
[00:07:09] Also it’s modified climbing right so the rope comes from above instead of below like normal climbers. How does that work?
[00:07:16] In a competitive setting, and usually it would lead climb which means you’re taking the rope up with you and hooking it in as you go that carries some significant risk for climbers like myself who are very protective of an injured limb. So we top rope and that gives us that safety net that if we fall we’re not going to have a massive tumble that could give quite an impact against the wall when we land it. There’s no tension in that rope…we’re doing the work ourself. But it’s just a safety net and that’s been call because it’s given me the opportunity to try some stuff like, I wouldn’t lead, I wouldn’t take that risk.
[00:07:51] Was there ever a point where you were standing at the bottom of the wall about to climb up and go; ‘actually I can’t do this.
[00:07:57] Every time Zoe, like it still gets to me and in particular that first climb up at nationals in August. I had not climbed at that level before and so there was this sort of this moment where I realised I’m doing more now with one and a half quote unquote legs than I ever did with two good legs and a whole lot more overwhelming than I thought it would. I might have choked a little on that first climb but it was really empowering and I think you know every time I go towards the wall I’m definitely thinking oh my gosh I can’t do this and I often get halfway up a wall and I’m thinking I can’t do this but I surprise myself and I think that’s a good thing. And the healthy surprises and you have to start looking back at that pattern and going I always think I can’t but actually then I do and then you can apply that to everything in life. Life is a bit of a climb and often we think we can’t but actually we can. It just means you have to kick off those labels first that tell you you can’t and pick out some decent ones which reaffirm that you’re able that you can… that you can do it … absolutely.
[00:09:01] We I think should put a couple of videos of you up on the the website because I’ve seen you climb and you’re like a spider monkey a monkey…yeah maybe… No!…it’s incredible Rachael, it really is to watch. Thank you.
[00:09:15] And it’s very empowering and I hope that other athletes or people who have a disability can watch it and draw inspiration from it.
[00:09:25] Yeah I hope they do.
[00:09:27] Now before we move on and talk to our next guest we went out recently and watched the Rugby League World Cup final together at our local pub which was lots of fun with a few locals.
[00:09:37] The Kiwi Ferns lost but I thought they played so well but one of the Australian players fullback Nakia Davis Welsh injured her ankle and the look on your face Rachael just… Did all these memories just start flooding back?… yeah yeah yeah… not going to cry.
[00:09:56] I think it’s different when you when you fall through you know sleepless nights no sleep because the pain you running out of options with an injury. So to see someone who’s at the top of their game and competing professionally to take an injury like that. I don’t say just oh my gosh, she’s hurt, she’s in pain. I can say hours of physio and I see I guess the psychology of that and what that could or couldn’t do for her career as a sports woman. And I think maybe and you could say here ankle go …it was horrible to watch.
[00:10:31] Now you saw a pain psychologist.
[00:10:33] I did. Yes. I used to have a very lineal approach to pain so pain is pain. It’s localized it’s mechanical. And I didn’t really understand the holistic approach to pain management that I now have. And so I learned through saying a psychologist there’s no way you can manage your pain really well when we men manage other stressors and life and make really healthy choices in other areas about life. And that’s something I’ve learned to do and I’ve discovered that my climbing really is my best pain relief. I don’t take too many medications anymore I had a moment where my 7 year old asked me Mom you don’t really like food. You just take pills and drink coffee. And that thing that shook me. I realized that that’s probably all he saw. And for a period that was a period I did need quite a high level of pain medication. But after time I’ve learned that when I manage everything else in my life well and going to do more of what I love. It really is the best pain relief and I’ve had that sort of validated by different specialists involved in my care as well. So that’s a positive outcome from climbing.
[00:11:41] Something else that I noticed last night when we were watching the rugby league World Cup final was that we were actually the only women sitting outside watching the game and we were surrounded by a whole bunch of men watching it and they were cheering on the Kiwi fans. What were your thoughts about it.
[00:11:57] I thought that was quite an. Yeah it was fantastic to say that the sport was there. The media are engaging in it.
[00:12:04] What I also found really interesting that it was a huge payday for the men even though the New Zealand men’s team got knocked out in the quarterfinals. They still collected 33000 Australian dollars each and from NZRL and they also took home a daily allowance of 120 dollars and they split thirty five thousand dollars between the same as losing the quarter finals. The Australian men who retained the title got fifty thousand dollars each for winning the women. Well I tried calling NZRL to try and figure out how much they received but the last time we spoke to them all they received as an allowance and I hope that there is a full review into the amount of money the prize money is well and the daddy announces a hundred twenty bucks for me and I and then thirty five thousand dollars. It’s a lot of money. It’s my face. I don’t know.
[00:12:54] We don’t we start with this and I think we start believing in ourselves as individuals. And again it comes down to labels that we wear and what we choose to think about ourselves other people stop believing them as well or vice versa. So yeah maybe it starts with each person rather than a whole collective.
[00:13:13] So yes go on for the next interview. Or a paper as known as Lady train pull and roller derby circles. She’s just been to the states to compete in the women’s flat track roller derby championship the final which her team the Victorian roller derby league 1 was broadcast on ESPN2. She’s a jammer; someone who scores points by lapping members of the opposition.
[00:13:35] The Kiwis been rolling around the rink since 2012 and loves it so much that she set up tricks and bowls an organization that supports female quad skaters Kyoto Samarra. Or do you prefer Lady trample. Happy that is either. It’s a great name.
[00:13:51] We did that come from England where the lady and the tramp and I love the fall lady is a tramp. My skating does very much involved I guess a supposedly graceful style that it will travel well like you you will role as a jammer as to avoid getting trampled business.
[00:14:09] Exactly. Is roller derby a serious sport.
[00:14:13] Yes that is I mean it has come from a very unique kind of use to be more recreational but the version that we play these days especially within the woman’s track division is highly competitive and we basically train for days away. Some of us have diets that we do offset training we are athletes at a highly competitive sport.
[00:14:34] So you started doing roller derby and Oakland and now you’re based out of Melbourne. What is the difference between roller derby in Australia and New Zealand. What’s the levels like volatility all over the world.
[00:14:46] Actually have some really high playing games but I’d love to come and join that touring roller derby league in Melbourne who at the time and I joined the team ranked fourth in the world so the team I was playing with in New Zealand at the time was ranked around about the 100 mark. And so it’s quite a big step up to go from where I was the game to them such as piracy audio he managed to go to the playoffs that year and came third and then this year we took off and then take out the championship.
[00:15:17] And and you also won in VP that’s fantastic.
[00:15:21] Thank you. I think he is a huge honor.
[00:15:23] I understand that you took a third at some point and you’ve come back to come first which is really exciting and well done. I just wondered what that did for your focus and mentality to go from to go and do your next round. Having come through. Did that give you an edge going and do you think or did it make you want it more.
[00:15:41] It absolutely made us once more. I mean getting to being so close get into that semifinal games and then only lose by such a small amount really.
[00:15:50] Davis thoughts reflect upon we came back. And we did a really critical analysis of the team that a lot of our strengths and weaknesses. They did a whole lot of and training and fit really high goals for next season. I mean we already tried really hard the previous season and we ended up even more but we had a lot of self reflection individually and then as a team on what we needed to change and how we innovate our strategy to take it out the next year.
[00:16:18] Yeah it can be a motivating factor isn’t it.
[00:16:21] And when you get songs you know for you Rachel it’s like a fingertip isn’t it was a half point yeah.
[00:16:27] So it was Atwood very says no emotion. So the second place I had the same number of holds is. She had slightly more awkward Martin towards the next thing I did and after going to a second judge that was given to her but she totally deserved it. She worked really hard for that.
[00:16:43] And yeah I’m full respect for the other competitors today and Keith’s para climber Rachel Carter and we were also talking to Lady trample Samantha people who has just won the MVP at the roller derby champs over in the States. Smart. A lot of the time when we see roller derby we see women in fishnet stockings and short shorts on shoulder pads and they’re actually what it’s all about.
[00:17:09] So I asked her whether it was. Want to get out of getting on a law we play and our skating style. Did you ever take a guess. You know we have the scars and elbows and knee pads and helmets because it is a full contact sport at speed on roller skates but our uniform that has developed the most. And there’s still a lot of creative aesthetics to it aspects to it but it is very much not designed for high performance stage. And your ability we’re no longer wearing the most part the suit is the Tutus in the sense that you see and there are still teams that they get for their own choice and you can still express your style within that.
[00:17:50] Now you also founded Chicks & Bowls.
[00:17:52] What is Chicks & Bowls?
[00:17:54] Chicks & Bowls is a company that I run. But it’s also a community. So we have designed a line of products that turned over of roller skates into pots skates that you can go to the skate park and museum basically like a skateboard. You can slide and grinding. But we also have these communities that we have these and we call them chapters that associate with us and they are spread all around the globe today. 160 chapters at the moment. And each chapter is made up of a skater or group of skaters that want to spread the circus this crazy sport that they host made up sessions with the local skaters and come out learn together and basically create a really safe and fun learning environment. The girls in state parks.
[00:18:37] What about trans women and your sports is that something that is it’s a topic we’ll be talking about later on in this podcast. But trans women enrolled. Is that something that happens?
[00:18:49] Yes it absolutely is. So whether they’re really unique and that we have a really awesome policy in the pipeline. And the evidence is that we got a very very open to different by nonbinary. Are these trends when you walk within the league and you know we represent you how you want to be ripped out. We have a lot of girls like they actually like when you go to a high level tournament. You actually advise the announcers in advance of your preferred pronoun so that they can be referred to in a way that makes you feel comfortable because it’s you that way the rest of your summer and just have a question here wondering in a minority sport.
[00:19:31] Did you have years where you felt like you werent getting the competitive opportunities that you would like because of the development and the size of the sport that youre involved in. And what do you think helps to give your support some traction and some more exposure.
[00:19:45] Theres a really interesting question at the moment because nobody is in this weird sort of growing pains when it first started. It was nation different and it was a little punk an underground and so when people first heard about it were really excited and we were able to draw the crowds to games because it was also kind of a way. And so those as elements of the fishnets and the you know the the woman playing sport hitting each other on roller. And I think that that drew a lot of popularity to it. And since the sport has become more competitive and there is more of an athletic strategic element to it that has kind of changed the way that the generic public fanbase interacts with the perceived that start we are kinda trying to rewrite how would be should be seen and what we should be seeing as athletes we take it very seriously we train it up to four days a week on skates and a lot of us do other things to enhance ourselves as athletes and as a team as athletes and those and we really want to try and shake them out of of being seen as those you know the girls are wearing fishnet on the ground or fist fights. It’s a hard image to kind of shake a break away from. I think there are some really awesome things that are changing and for us to be on ESPN.
[00:20:54] So with the huge achievements the sport and I really hope that more opportunities like that continue to come for us.
[00:21:00] That was Samara Pepperall also known as Lady Trample in roller derby circles. I love that name. It’s fantastic. I don’t know what my roller derby name would be. Not that I love the rights that she had from where it comes from. It was fantastic. Now before we move on we touch very very briefly on trans rights and access to sports. As you might be aware women’s weight lifting has been a hot topic following the announcement of the New Zealand Commonwealth Games and for the first time ever New Zealand is sending a transgendered woman to represent us on the world stage. Laurel Hubbard has been competing at the World Champs this week and is the first transgender weightlifter to do so.
[00:21:38] Trans rights and trans Xes in sport is fascinating and it’s not a subject that actually has been researched law and using and I think that’s not a subject we think that often either is and videos and to be honest that’s not something I’ve given much consideration because I don’t have the experience with people who are going through those challenges. So we’re often only as aware the experiences around us enable us to be I guess having a disability todo it’s almost the same thing for you a minority and sometimes sports don’t kind of for you. Yeah I think wanna do pain on the sport that you’re involved in so it’s what’s roller derby and climbing they are a minority sport to start with and then second they competing as a pair climber you’re also a minority group starting within a minority sport. Exactly. So there’s good things to come and developing that that way certainly. But behind Europe and there I think the similarities between trains are shoes and a pair of shoes. I think we want to compete as the person that we see sounds as if we want to have the same opportunities as other people so I don’t see myself specifically as disabled.
[00:22:48] I see myself as a climber and I’m capable to compete as a climber and said that’s what I want to be doing and focusing on and I want to be out there and involved with other climbers and learning from them not missing out on opportunities so that’s difficult when as a small sport in a small group well it stick with small sports if you can call it that minority sports weightlifting and we were talking to Alethia Boon should be at the Come games alongside Hubbard representing New Zealand.
[00:23:16] She first represented New Zealand and gymnastics in 1998 and in 2002 and went to the 2000 Sydney Olympics.
[00:23:24] She’s also a competitor keen competitive cross of Russia and is currently ranked second in Australia. Alethia is also active on instagram with more than sixty seven thousand followers Kyodo Aletha.
[00:23:38] Congratulations on your inclusion to the calm games once again gymnastics to weightlifting. How did that happen.
[00:23:45] Crazy I actually just had a bit of a void and wanted to find something to stay fit and I actually found Crossett through cross that I found out that I was actually really bad at weightlifting very strong and I thought oh this is something that I could actually just try to get better at for the sake of getting better at it.
[00:24:03] And yeah I just ended up throwing myself into a competition and it just grew from there.
[00:24:10] Are there any similarities between gymnastics and weightlifting.
[00:24:14] Absolutely. I think the thing that got me hooked on weightlifting is that you have to be millilitre perfect in order to execute a good list and you know the mistakes that for being you have to be made a perfect otherwise you’re going to fall. The similarities of having to be so technically proficient definitely got me hooked. I wanted to learn more do more and just get better at it.
[00:24:36] What’s the difference between weightlifting and competitive crossfit the weight lifting you get at three attempts at a snatch and three attempts at a clean energy. You’ll just need to count it really didn’t count. It is a bit a weight lifting the less running swimming. All different fitness modality and Jeffrey areas and you could actually race through a workout and make a mistake but still do. OK we’re with weightlifting or you’re listening to counts. This needs to be a bit more on point with weightlifting.
[00:25:09] You recently had an Achilles tear. Is that right.
[00:25:13] I did yeah. Actually at the crossfit games in 2016 on the big stage I was jumping over a box and I just felt and later I looked down and I couldn’t really walk. So clothes had completely ruptured.
[00:25:27] Alethea after your injury did you find that that sort of sunk your confidence a little bit as to how far you could push your body. And what were the strategies that used to move past that.
[00:25:38] Yeah definitely. And to know just how I could actually come back recovering from surgery and coming back it was literally having a really small mouth on go. So it was definitely stretching the Achilles was the first thing the first time I could put my foot against the wall and touch my name to the wall that was bigger than that small wind progression. Little things like being able to walk and towel. And then once that happens I was able to just look for the next small girl. It was very important to me to celebrate each and every little milestone because that big picture too far away.
[00:26:13] It feels unrealistic at different points doesn’t it.
[00:26:16] Absolutely. It so hard to get there but the small win definitely helps make that bigger picture seem like it’s more realistic.
[00:26:23] Yeah. Taking the small wins right.
[00:26:25] You know you have to learn to be proud of yourself for those Quentins you run into the calm games you first win and the like 90s has to be what you were just a teenager when I was 14 years old.
[00:26:37] My goodness.
[00:26:39] I was a bit of a deer in the headlights. I don’t think I fully comprehend what a big deal it was to make it.
[00:26:45] Yeah. And then a couple of years later you were in the reserves for the Olympics but you ended up going.
[00:26:50] I was just an alternate so I’m coming over to watch anyway.
[00:26:53] Something that I found really fascinating is that you have a tape bull that rhymes.
[00:27:00] I do. So disgusting but it’s definitely…
[00:27:04] You know it’s a visual told and made just realize that you know all the hard days even if it’s a rough day I just put some tape on the table and I know that I’m getting that one step closer to go.
[00:27:16] So all the type that you use you take takeoff and then you put on the bull. I do it I love it.
[00:27:22] But it is it’s a visual so as a visual reminder you know that no matter how crappy things might be in the first place it’s still a process and you’ll get it.
[00:27:31] Before I let you go Alethia there’s been a lot of discussion of likes about the com games tame it’s going particularly around the inclusion of the first transgendered woman to the Taim. What’s your point of view on this.
[00:27:44] I don’t really have a point of view. I just think Laurel was part of our team and regardless we support her 100 percent and it’s the way it should be right.
[00:27:52] We should support all women in sports. Absolutely. And what’s the realistic goal for your home games.
[00:27:59] I haven’t quite a result goal yet. I’m all about just trying to get the best version of yourself out there.
[00:28:07] Well we wish you all the very best. I cannot wait to watch the games it’s going to be spectacular. Thank you. For having me. Thanks so much. Alethia Boon women’s weight lifter for New Zealand at the Commonwealth Games. We wish you all the very best.
[00:28:20] Rachel it’s been an absolute pleasure having you in studio. You are an inspiration. What are you going to be doing over summer?
[00:28:27] I’m going to be reducing the calorie intake and probably being a little more careful. I’ve got competitions in May by the looks of it coming up – New Zealand will be including para climbing in two of the National Round this coming season. Really. And so be focusing on that.
[00:28:45] And that’s it for this episode of Fair Play. You can find more on wispsports.com and don’t forget to like, follow and share us on Facebook and Twitter @wispsports. We’d love to hear from you. You can also listen to some of the other fantastic podcasts coming from top sports journalists and athletes from around the world covering every sport imaginable from sailing to horse riding. Thank you to executive producer Chris Stafford. Co presenter para climber Rachel Carter – fabulous! I’m going to have you back. I’m Zoe George. Thanks again. And don’t forget to play hard play fair.