Lisa Ingarfield and Jessica Luther discuss how and why women’s achievements are demoted by male journalists regardless of winning performances in favor of men
Podcast length: 37′
Lisa Ingarfield is joined by author, journalist and host of the Burn it All Down podcast Jessica Luther to discuss Women’s Representation in the Media and the repetitive erosion of women’s contributions. They unpack some examples of how female athletes are shunted into the shadows and regarded as a secondary story, regardless of their performance. Why media perpetuate this style of journalism to cover stories that they shape to their audience and diminish women’s achievements in the process. You can contribute to this conversation by emailing us at email@example.com or posting your comment on our Facebook page or on the website at www.wispsports.com.
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LISTEN to Episode 1 of Talking Point with Joanna Snawder-Manzo here
READ Talking Point Blog by Lisa Ingarfield here
Lisa Ingarfield, PhD, is a runner, triathlete, USA Triathlon and Road Runners Club of America—RRCA certified coach. She owns Tri to Defi Coaching and Consulting and provides organizational communication evaluation and consulting services. She is a freelance writer specializing in issues affecting women—particularly in sport and education, and is a member of Boulder, Colorado’s Vixxen Racing’s 2017 women’s triathlon team.
Jessica Luther is an award-winning freelance journalist in Austin, Texas. She is the author of Unsportsmanlike Conduct: College Football and the Politics of Rape. Her work has appeared in ESPN Magazine, New York Times Magazine, and the Texas Observer, and at Sports Illustrated and BuzzFeed. Her work gained national attention in 2015 when Dan Solomon and she broke open the story about a Baylor football player on trial for sexual assault for Texas Monthly.
[00:00:00] All right today we are lucky enough to have Jessica Luther with us on the show. Welcome Jessica. Happy to be here. Thank you for having me. I’m wondering if we could begin if you could tell us a little bit about your background and how or rather about your Burn it all Down. Feminist’s sports podcast, especially how it got started, the kinds of things you cover and where our listeners can access your podcasts so that they can listen and share.
Burning all down we call it a feminist sports podcast.
[00:00:28] There are five co-hosts so we don’t all show up every week. And that’s me, Lindsey Gibbs who’s a reporter at Think Progress, Shereen Ahmed she’s a freelance reporter out of Toronto, Brenda Elsy she’s a history professor at Hofstra., and Amir Rose Davis who does history at Penn State.
[00:00:45] And it’s a very topical show. We do it every week. And we try to hit on the big stories so last week we talked about the ‘me too’ movement that’s happening and if we thought it would spill over into sports. We’ve talked about concussions. We talk about racism and sexism in sport. Last week we also did a sort of a segment where we talk about fun things in sport to try to make themselves happy. Every week we do the burn pile – burn stuff that we don’t like that week we always honor one bad ass element of the week that kind of stuff. It’s just you know we’re all friends and we decided that instead of just talking in a private chat that we do it over a podcast and you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, iTunes, Soundcloud I’m trying to remember where it all is and if anyone wants more information – burnitalldownpod. com.
[00:01:35] OK. That sounds awesome. So what did you most recently burn burn up or burn down in your podcasts. The items that you don’t like.
[00:01:44] I think that last week I burned the whole story about Papa John’s pizza and the owner saying that his pizza sales were hurt because NFL players were kneeling. And I was not a fan of that assessment.
[00:01:59] Yeah. That is that is good that you burned that down. I’m in agreement.
[00:02:04] A week before I I burned there was a doping scandal at the Iditarod team of dogs was found to have been doped and I was very sad.
[00:02:14] Yeah. Yeah I heard that right. Yes. Tramadol I think it was because I like it. Our dog is older and has some pain and so he has Tramadol and I’m like I didn’t even know that it was like a doping drug for dogs that’s ridiculous.
[00:02:26] I know I know. So I mean the range is very wide. And the things that we talk about.
[00:02:32] But I am sure you have plenty of items every week that would qualify for your burning your ritual burning down. We’re definitely in a time where there’s a lot. All right. Well great we’ll thank you. So folks you should listen to that podcast. It sounds excellent and really topical. And just another important voice in women and sport and women in sports media.
So thinking about your long history Jessica in writing and investigating women in sport and sports culture and it’s sometimes harmful effects on women. You know I noticed the other day when Shalane Flanagan won the New York Maarathon – an historic event 40 years since the last U.S. women had won and I was browsing the internet to look for research – I don’t research articles but articles about it to see how it was being represented. And that came across a San Diego newspaper and their headline was Meb finishes 11th in his last marathon semi-colon U.S. woman makes history. And I was pretty irked by that because Shalane’s name wasn’t even mentioned and she was second fiddle to the fact that MEB finished 11th. Granted it was his final marathon but I do feel like even so Sharleen’s accomplishment was far greater and far more significant than his 11th place finish as much as I do like Meb as a runner and so this was just another example of this repetitive erosion of women’s contributions that I’m seeing. And obviously because you’ve been studying this and investigating it and writing about it I’m wondering if you have any thoughts or themes that you have uncovered.
[00:04:25] It’s kind of a big question I realize but since you’ve been doing this for some time I am imagining the same things keep bubbling to the surface and I was wondering if you would be had to share a couple of those with our listeners.
[00:04:36] Yeah that’s such a great example. I feel like we had something similar happened with the Olympics and I want to say it was Michael Phelps and Katie Ledecky were like his silver medal was like the big headline and her gold medals were like an afterthought.
[00:04:50] You know and I think it’s such a good example because it is so much about both the way we treat women sports generally but also within the media they are very second fiddle there. I would guess that the editor of that paper wrote that or whoever the editor was that wrote the headline would assume that his readers would know who Meb is and wouldn’t know who she was so naming her wouldn’t do anything for the reader which of course is just rude to begin with to Shalane Flanagan.
[00:05:19] But also you know and it really reveals sort of how much they know who MEB is because Meb is fun. I like Meb too but he’s a male runner and so he’s gotten more press because of that. Right. And so we have this terrible cycle that we see all the time in women’s sport where they are not given the resources and the support to begin with that affects like how they’re covered in the media and how well they do. And then when it’s the time to actually cover the sport they’re seen as not as important because we don’t know who they are but we don’t know who they are because you haven’t covered them because you’ve decided that they’re not important. And I mean I think it’s it’s necessary that we address the fact that more than any other type of media according to the women’s media center who looks at this kind of thing sports media is a lot of men like it almost 90 percent men which is much higher than any other form of media. And so this idea that there’s some objective idea of whether or not women are lesser athletes than men are often being decided by a lot of men. And so it just it makes sense right. We’re not surprised necessarily that that’s the headline in San Diego even if we’re disappointed and it just says so much about how we treat women’s sport in general.
[00:06:41] Yeah and it’s so there’s an eraser of their experience and their value and I do remember that in the Olympics and there are a couple of other particularly egregious examples where I think someone who’d won a medal was also the partner of a NFL player and the headline was something like NFL players wife wins medal or something like that.
[00:07:04] Yes they did that in Chicago because he was a Chicago Bear and they felt like the people would know who he was more and therefore relate to the story more. Which of course just says again so much about why don’t we know about female athletes to begin with so that they can be their own story. They deserve to be their own story.
[00:07:22] Yeah. And it’s this cycle that we’re caught in right. And so it’s it’s self-fulfilling and so women are women and girls are not represented in the media and the sports media so we don’t see them actively engaging in sport. And so then the assumption is well it’s just not as interesting or it doesn’t get as higher viewership so then we’re not going to, we’re not going to feature them and give them airtime and get them sponsorship and so this cycle just perpetuates, right. Absolutely. Do you have ideas or have you seen people effectively interrupt that cycle and make some changes.
[00:08:00] That’s a really good question. I think the real, I think the toughest point are seem to be team sports. So you know the WNBA Plus them they’ve made it 20 years now. Right. So I think they just celebrated this last year 20 years. And then I guess we see it with women’s soccer but maybe that’s in the U.S. because we don’t the men’s soccer team is so bad but most to the time the sports tend to do it better. Women are individuals right. That’s why we all know and Williams’s because she plays an individual sport. And so I mean I think the big challenge. There are so many that we’ve already addressed as to why there’s challenges here. But part of it is like one of the reasons we all love sport so much. Is it something you can talk about. Right. You’re like you watch a game that you don’t care about because your friend cares about it. And you know that when you go to work on Monday you too can talk about it. And women’s sport because of all the things that we’ve just discussed including like severe lack of coverage just in general, sports media I think what was the recent two percent of sports center is about women’s sport. It’s so hard to build that kind of fan community right where people want to talk to each other after the game because they don’t realize other people want to talk about it too. And so I don’t know. I don’t know – that’s a great question. Like who has done it.
[00:09:21] Well I mean certainly the WNBA has hung on for 20 years and they’re in their communities like we’ve seen the Minnesota Lynx. They have a pretty good crowd there. Connecticut – the Connecticut team has an amazing fan base in Connecticut. But on a national level I don’t know if we’ve really seen it around individual – I mean unground team sport like we maybe have seen with an individual female athlete like Serena or even maybe Simone Biles or something like that.
[00:09:52] That’s a really interesting distinction. I hadn’t thought about that where women athletes tend to get a positive and affirmative media is in the individual categories and that’s even minimal right. But then when we think about team sports it’s almost, it’s completely erased. And I think about the WNBA and I’m not a basketball fan at all. But I when I think about basketball in the United States I think about men’s basketball right I think about the NBA – like the WNBA rarely comes to mind and in fact I’m you know I wouldn’t even know when it’s played. I presume it’s played around the same time.
And actually it’s not.
[00:10:36] So that is an interesting story. The WNBA plays during the summer which the idea would be that they’d play on off season of the NBA in order for basketball fans to pay attention. There’s been a lot of debate about whether or not that was a good move or an effective move. Which is interesting because now we’ve seen over the last couple of years over the summer we’ve seen the rise of the D-League. Right. Like minor league for the NBA. Not like summer prep season. And people watched that on TV. So yeah it is interesting how we don’t. I mean I know about the WNBA because I had actively made myself learn about it because I care about. That’s one of these women. But it is work because there isn’t a structure around it the way that there is for fans as it is around male sports.
[00:11:20] Yeah that’s a really great point that it’s work for you to find out about the WNBA and I think that at my lack of knowledge is certainly a product of our culture. And so if you have to work at it that seems counterintuitive to what we understand sports to be which is an escape which is a moment a relaxation a gathering with friends and enjoyment. You know you think about Sundays and the NFL and people gathering together there’s no effort involved in that. Right. And then we’ve constructed this environment where men sports are like hilariously easy to access and women’s sports are so very difficult and so that feels like I would have to do too much to engage in that. And that’s not what sports viewing is about.
[00:12:04] Right. Right.
[00:12:05] And I will say that there are pockets so if you fall into the right pocket especially now in social media like you can find there’s a robust group of people on Twitter who love women’s hockey and you get in there you can watch their conversation about women’s hockey. Same with women’s soccer. Same with the WNBA or even women’s college ball. But you got to find them and you have to figure out where they are and figure out how to follow and how to participate in those conversations. And we are seeing like a new crop of web sites that are dedicated in you know specifically to women’s sports sometimes specifically to one sport like summit hoops just as women’s basketball and all of. You know and all all the different levels of it. So we’re seeing new stuff because of the way the media is branching out. And it’s accessibility. But you’re right it is like I have to figure out how where to go is the first step. And it can sometimes be very daunting and so I have to say on top of that. Sometimes it’s hard to figure out where you can see the games. Right. It’s just difficult to find where women’s games are that I can watch them. It is wild when you think about it in comparison to men’s sport where you just turn out like I know if I turn on the TV in America and on a Saturday College Football will be on seven channels I will get some kind of game. Yeah. Ver different.
[00:13:23] Yeah that is interesting and I think you know I remember I was loosely following the NCAA basketball finals that happen and you know them obviously the March Madness is all about the men’s teams and there’s this whole other experience that’s happening with the women’s teams and I think it was the University of Oregon and the men’s team was making it fairly high and the women’s team was also doing really well. But disproportionately the men were receiving all of the acclaim and all of the talk about how well this men’s basketball team was doing while at the same time the women were holding pace are making it up you know into the Sweet 16 and then into the eight. And I think the women got as far as eight men go as far as four. But it was almost – one like there was no conversation about it and to I don’t know where I would have watched the women’s NCAA’s final games in comparison to how prolific the information was being thrown at me about how and where I could see these and see the way male basketball games.
[00:14:32] Right. Yes exactly.
[00:14:34] So it’s not even at the professional level it stretches all the way down to college and to high school right because you can get high school football games on television.
[00:14:41] Yeah. And I live in Texas you can absolutely get high school football games on your television here.
[00:14:47] And that’s all men. And in terms of high school coverage for sports for women maybe cross-country I’m not even sure whether there would be any featured kind of at that level as to where we’re creating this value system from a very very early age it seems like at least in terms of exposure media exposure.
[00:15:06] Right. Absolutely. And like people’s media literacy around sport like you learn very fast. That’s what sports matter based on who covers them like it’s not a secret for anyone who picks up a paper or looks at a website which one matters that we see that too. And the athlete’s see that too. This is one of the things I think a lot about you see more athletes see that that.
[00:15:28] And the general public’s lack of education around media literacy are around critically analyzing what they’re experiencing and seeing both in print media and on television. That doesn’t get taught. Right. So then it’s presented as normal and then when it’s normal it’s not questioned. Right. And you know so the number of people that are questioning it are in the the minority already as compared to the people who are consuming this without thinking twice about it. Right. And I don’t know that that’s necessarily the fall of the consumers per se. I think that it’s a larger cultural system right that supports that message through money and through visibility et cetera. So thinking about kind of that side of things and I wanted to kind of add into this conversation the ways in which sports media when they do talk about women athletes the ways in which they talk about women athletes so I’ve certainly noticed that there tends to be a heavy focus on women’s bodies and clothing and perhaps they’re kind of external or non sport associated lives like what’s happening in their personal lives tends to be talked about at greater length by sports commentators than their actual performance in the sport. Have you come across that in your work and research.
[00:16:48] Yeah I think that’s you know as a consumer of sport I think we see that a lot. I think women really see it more when it’s happening like we recognize it better. And you know again I’ll just come back to look who’s creating sport content is almost all men right. And they start from a place that’s culturally created that says that women aren’t athletes first right they may be athletes but they are women athletes and so that that part of it gets foregrounded. And so we do we’re a lot about their lives and their bodies how they think about their bodies.
[00:17:26] know I talk like one thing I remember a lot. And I’m going to get the year wrong and I apologize either 2007 and 2009. Serena Williams came out of nowhere. She’d been gone from the sport for a while. And she came back to the Australian Open and she won but she gained weight. In the mean time. And so all the way through, through the final all the commentators will not stop talking about her weight even though they kept saying she’s not going to be good enough because she is not fit. And then she won the whole thing. And I just remember like that cognitive dissonance for me as a viewer being she won like you told me for two weeks that she couldn’t do it because of what she looked like and that was the commentary that I took away from that experience.
[00:18:07] And I think about it a lot with her and just the way we think about women’s bodies. But I do think that you know the way we think about it is that there are women first and athletes second and that’s the way we then end up talking about them.
[00:18:18] Yeah. And so that objectification or that sexual objectification either that we see in mainstream media or about women in general spills over into the sports field. And so you know in my opinion really limits the way that we can understand and view women athletes as athletes right because they’re still ultimately in many ways objects for viewing pleasure. And primarily I would say men’s pleasure in terms of that male gaze. And I think that when you have commentators primarily who are men that that just gets perpetuated.
[00:18:53] Yeah absolutely. I mean I’m just nodding as you were saying that I was like yes that is how it works. That is. Yeah. So they’re seen as objects even as they’re being athletes.
[00:19:03] Right. So no matter how accomplished they are. No. You know it’s always more about the way in which they look and I think that that came up for the gymnasts in the Rio Olympics. Oh absolutely. There was a lot of commentary about their bodies right.
[00:19:16] I remember like Gabby Douglas – people liked her hair.
[00:19:20] Right there was like this whole thing which again that’s a racialized and gendered thing that was going on but absolutely this kind of like she should look a certain way in order for us to care about how good she is at the sport. Even though she is literally the best person in the sport those moments are just infuriating to watch that these athletes just get to be athletes in the way that men do. And that’s always a bummer when you see that we just let them be athletes man they’re so good at what they’re doing. Right. Let’s just appreciate that.
[00:19:50] And I think that this conversation that we’re having really taps into the you know our previous guest on Talking Point was Joanna Snowden and she was talking about how this says this is a system right. This isn’t an person’s individual behavior. Those individual behaviors are a product of this larger system that’s cultural political economic that supports men over women. And so it isn’t just an individual commentator who makes a comment about Gabby Douglas’ hair. Right like right that moment exists in a larger structure which I think is when you start to scratch and look into that can feel really overwhelming. About how do you interrupt it like. Like we mentioned earlier in this conversation like how do you really interrupt those behaviors in a way that is meaningful and actually will contribute to some kind of change for women’s sport. Right.
[00:20:43] Yes absolutely I think that’s the big thing. How do we hold people accountable within a system that can shoot you know slowly it’s always going to be slowly shift that system. So you know whether or not people get held accountable when they do those things matters so much. Right.
[00:21:01] Right. And so thinking about accountability right. I want to I want to shift to the Me Too campaign you said that you had talked about this on your podcast and it’s intersection with women’s sports and I think that definitely happened in terms of a number of sports personalities coming out and hash tagging ‘me too’. But also it connects into this objectification of women in a sexual objectification and specifically in women. And I know that you’ve written a lot about sexual violence in school and it’s published a book Unsportsmanlike Conduct in College Football and the Politics of Rape and so I’m wondering if you have any thoughts about the Me Too campaign and about sexual violence in sport that you would be willing to share with our listeners as you’ve kind of seen this unfold over the last month.
[00:21:49] Sure it’s been really something like I woke up today. And Ali Reissman had come and done an interview on CBS News she is the Olympics Olympic gold medalist from the U.S. saying that Larry Nassor who now dozens and dozens of women have come forward to say he was a doctor for U.S. gymnastics that he had abused them, assaulted them. She has not come forward. I woke up to another story this morning went to bed last night there was a story in Hollywood.
[00:22:13] I woke up this morning to a story in sport and I just want to say like it. The first thing about this last month has just been the absolute bravery of so many people to disclose publicly about being victimized and assaulted within these very powerful systems where we don’t believe the accounts often. But the sheer number has just been I don’t even know I don’t even know the right word.
[00:22:39] Overwhelming. You know and gives me hope. So we have seen at least right now we have seen men in Hollywood and men in the media – general media.
[00:22:52] They’ve left their jobs after multiple people have come forward. You know within U.S. football, college football in the last year or so there were two had football coaches want to Baylor, one in Minnesota who both lost their jobs after very different cases but they both handled sexual assault issues within their programs badly and they both lost their jobs. I think that’s huge. And that only happens when people can come forward. We don’t make it easy for them and no one should ever feel like they have to. That’s a huge one. But I do think all these things that we’re talking about leading up to this matter. So I see all of this on a spectrum. The kind of terrible sexual violence that I end up writing a lot about it for me on the same spectrum as sexual objectification, harassment sexism comments. You know they all relate to one another. Because so much of what happens in those moments of violence is a dehumanization of these when they writing them as objects and not people. And so all of this is feeding in to each other and those women know it too. Like they understand when they’re being objectified that in some way that’s tied to their vulnerability within these power structures. That’s why they don’t come forward once they’re back right. And so one story that I like to tell about this and it really just threw me. It was just so – I went to the college campus last year and I gave this talk about sexual violence in college football – is a very specific talk about that system about the money.
[00:24:30] There are all those things. And I finish a very small school division 3 which is the lowest division. And the softball team is there. This young woman raises her hand and she says – does the fact that like all that stuff you talked about is that like related to the fact that people don’t care about us as athletes. And I was like yes but I didn’t have the moment I didn’t have a good answer.
[00:24:54] I couldn’t tie that bow for her on what. But she felt it right like I gave a talk in a really specific violent topic. But she herself is a 19 – 20 year old woman playing college softball connected to her lived experience as a female athlete that those things for her were related.
[00:25:14] And that just I don’t know really I thought about that whole much the last year of my life that she could see it and felt it. So I see all of these things as related. There’s some are obviously what happened what ends up happening to the women are so much worse. But that doesn’t mean that they’re they’re not tied together.
[00:25:35] Yeah. And that feeling that you described that she had I think that that’s something that is often intangible and women perhaps as a group have community around this feeling which is not the greatest thing to have community around obviously but you know articulating that and being able to like you said tie the bow and insert that feeling into this broader conversation of this broader landscape of the you know diminishing women’s contribution you know wage discrimination, the sexual objectification of women’s bodie,s limiting opportunities for women like it all it all feeds into the same river. Right. And that’s the piece I think sometimes folks really struggle with that it isn’t an isolated incident. And so this Me Too campaign for me is really in part demonstrated. These are not isolated incidents. Right. This is a pervasive problem that requires a widespread solution that we have yet to initiate.
[00:26:45] Right. Absolutely.
[00:26:48] The one thing that irks me about the Me Too campaign not the campaign itself is that women have been saying this for years. Right. Women and other marginalized groups have been saying for years that they’ve been experiencing sexual violence sexual harassment and these having these experiences and yet it only becomes the folks in power only listen when there are layers upon layers of individuals who come out right. And so you think you know why is one person coming forward not enough? Right why does it have to be 55 people? You know I don’t expect you to answer that. I think that’s one thing that is highlighted for me. You know so you’re talking about in sports and coaching it there have been claims of sexual harassment and sexual assault against coaches for years. You know why. Why is a coach allowed to continue like one. One articulation of this should be enough for an entity to say you’re no longer a coach.
[00:27:44] Right. Right. Well so much of it goes back to think one of the things that makes all of this so difficult to they assume that just general cultural disbelief in women and their ability to tell the truth. That’s why we have all these stereotypes of women being hysterical and emotional. And these are all easy cultural excuses for not believing a woman or a girl when they come forward. Right. And like yeah I mean your analogy is. It all feeds into the river and I just think that rivers are really hard to stop. Right. I like we can do maybe a little tributaries or cut off the streams or do something like that. But it is a feeling like then what do you do at the river and the sort of under current with the river is this idea that we just don’t believe certain people in our culture. Right. And in the moment we’re talking mainly about women but not you know only but that sort of underlying But just the way we don’t really marginalize voices all right when they tell us about their lived experiences. Yeah that it does take 55 of them with the exact same story over four decades for then it matters. Yeah. That can be a bummer as you’re watching it all unfold even as we’re finally seeing accountability.
[00:29:05] Yeah. And even into that you know you think about Harvey Weinstein and even the number of individuals who have come forward who have what we might perceive as cultural or social power. Right because they’re Hollywood stars. You know even in the face of women coming forward with that level of capital it’s still not enough. There you know their claims of these experiences before it kind of blew up to their colleagues were diminished or minimized or brushed under the carpet. You know and so you think you think that it would help to have someone powerful come forward but it really doesn’t because like that river is strong and it’s running in the opposite direction to women’s equity and women’s self-worth I think.
[00:29:57] Absolutely yeah.
[00:30:00] OK. So this is kind of a heavy conversation and thinking I think we highlighted the how how the breadth and depth of this issue. And so just to wrap up I’m wondering if you have any advice to our listeners about things that they can do moving forward with regard to elevating women’s sports, elevating women in sport and kind of tackling some of these larger cultural frameworks that we’ve talked about.
[00:30:25] Yeah I think of that in an individual what you can do is you can do the work to find the sports like there are spaces out there where if you want to be a fan you can be, take the time to do it. But I do think in this era of social media especially like it does matter even if you’re going to only change three people’s minds in your circle like when you point out that the way that these things work the things that commentators say about women are the way that the media writes headlines about women and men in the same sport. Those kind of things. I know it’s small but it can make a difference like I’ve seen it in my own life my sort of incessant critique of this culture has affected people in my life who have told me that that has changed how they think about it so maybe you’re not like big scale change or not New York Times breaking Harvey Weinstein stories or something but changing the people around you so that they can see it too. Once people see it they can’t unsee it. So I think that’s a huge one even if it feels small. And then if you like when something big happens and you do want to respond I always tell people to go to the money like find out who the sponsors are.
[00:31:31] Those are the people that you contact if you have issues at your school they contact them as an alumni and tell them that you want changes and that then it matters to you because you give money to the school like those kind of things and do have an impact, like a real one. I hate that money is a lot of the answer but it’s a lot of the problem. So that’s sort of what we have to think about going forward.
[00:31:54] Yeah I think that money is. I agree with you money is the root of a lot of this capitalism. And you know I could probably talk for an hour about that too. And I think that you know as much as I over time have learned more about these issues. You know when I was younger it gave new meaning to the phrase ignorance is bliss because I think in many ways ignorance is bliss and I don’t mean that in a you know detrimental derogatory way. But when you don’t know what you don’t know and if you if you don’t see something it’s hard to do anything about it right. So when you do have friends who make a comment or point at a headline and then you’re you’re your view of something changes you can’t really go back. And I think that there’s some there’s some grief and loss in that moving into a kind of more I suppose quote unquote work environment. And one of my favorite quotes. I’m not even sure who said it but ‘change the way you look at look at things and the look of things will change.’ And I feel like that’s what you’re trying to do with your writing. And what we’re trying to do with this podcast is to help people kind of shift just a little bit so that they look at the same quote unquote normal things in a different light which will then open up opportunities to provide critique and challenge. All right well thank you so much for talking with us today Jessica. It’s been wonderful and I’m really excited to have gotten to.
[00:33:24] Meet you and learn about the work that you’re doing and the writing that you’re doing and I’m really pleased that you’re out there fighting the good fight and continuing to point out the fallacies and the problems in this system so that normal people can be educated.
[00:33:39] Well thank you so much for having me on.
[00:33:41] All right thanks so much. Take care.